I watched most of the Bucks-Grizzlies games simply feeling bad for just about everyone involved in the game. There must have been 800 fans in the building at tipoff because of the weather. Bogut started out getting schooled by Darko Milicic of all people. Mike Miller was getting open jumpers whenever he wanted. The game even marked the arrival of the Kwame Brown “I just don’t really care all that much” tour to Memphis (great line by Jon McGlocklin when Brown was called for a foul on Gadzuric despite not coming within about a foot of him: “Brown didn’t even say a word! He just sort of shrugged his shoulders like, ‘okay’.”)Krystkowiak even started Bell and Ivey (giving up a total of 10 inches to Mike Miller and Rudy Gay), but I can’t complain about it because he didn’t have a choice.
Without Yi available, then Simmons had to play backup power forward (no word on why Voskuhl and Michael Ruffin are now apparently benched). So with Mason only in his second game back then Bell had to start at small forward, and without Redd that leaves only two more guards on the active roster. Is Harris planning on doing anything about this thin backcourt? I can’t wait for Mo to need to take a game off to rest his injured thumb (which will need surgery after the season). Then does Bell and Ivey play 48 minutes each?
Lets just say that this game didn’t give me much confidence in my playoff prediction. Thank you Mo for the personal 10-0 run to seal the game.
Meanwhile, can we finally put to bed the myth of Royal Ivey as a good defensive player?
Mike Miller went for 32 points (14 above his average) on 12-21 shooting. Especially in the first half he was able to get wide open looks almost whenever he wanted, ostensibly while on Ivey’s watch. The only thing that stopped him all night was getting clubbed in the face a couple of times by Villanueva.
Of course, Ivey has a reputation as a good defender and he must always bring the energy in practice, because he sure does play a lot. However, as I wrote a couple of weeks ago, I’m convinced that in order to get a good defensive reputation all you have to do is look good in your defensive stance and look annoyed when you get beat. Since the rules of basketball are slanted toward the offensive player, it is very difficult to actually judge just how “good” a defender someone is. I think that there are generally two types of great defensive players — people with the “whole package” (elite athletes with size/strength advantages who bring the effort all the time) and cheap shot artists (who make up for their lack of athleticism with a lack of morality). Just because a guy tries to fight through screens doesn’t make him a good defender — just someone who tries hard. In reality, though, a good defender is someone who holds his opponent to less production than he himself produces offensively. Talent always wins out in basketball — if you aren’t big, strong or fast enough that will get exploited, no matter how hard you try (although lack of effort will get exploited, too. Just ask Kwame Brown).
The trouble is that Ivey is nowhere near an average offensive player, so even if he could hold the people he defends to average production then he would still be a net-negative player.
The myth of Ivey’s defense is borne out in the stats, thanks to 82games.com. Ivey has played 37% of the time and the Bucks have been outscored by 11.1 points per 48 minutes with him on the court and by 5.3 pp/48 without him. They rebound slightly better without him, committ one more foul/48 with him and draw one fewer foul/48 without him.
82games.com also breaks down each players’ performance by the position they are playing, as well as the performance of their counterparts while in the game. The story is told by PER (Player Efficiency Rating — very similar to IPM). An average player will have a PER of 15, while a 20 PER is close to all-star level. Ivey is a poor offensive player (PER of 11.9 at point guard and 11.2 at shooting guard) while he turns the people he defends into studs (opposing point guards have a 22.3 PER against him and shooting guards run up a 19.4). On average he scores 14 points per 48 minutes and the guys he guards score 23.
Of course, with the thin backcourt it is all a moot point — Ivey has to play. But this just shows what a mistake it is to add a player to a team because his lack of offense makes you believe his defense is good.
And, while I’m bringing up statistics and love to go on and on about how Charlie Villanueva should play more, I just wanted to point out one more thing:
Yi Jianlian: 48 starts, 1 double-double
Desmond Mason: 25 starts, 1 double-double
Bobby Simmons: 20 starts, no double-doubles
Charlie Villanueva: 1 start, 2 double-doubles
Just saying.
All in all, while it was a truly uninspiring win against Memphis, it was a win. Considering that the Bucks were down three starters (and only had one should-be starter to plug in) they deserve some credit for withstanding the Grizzlies’ early run and hanging around until the end.
Now it’s off to Dallas, where a blowout loss wont really matter much. At least they split the road trip.
3 responses so far ↓
1 Alex // Feb 6, 2008 at 3:29 pm
Nice article, Brett.
It’s tough to get excited over a win against a Grizzlies club that was bad before trading away many of their best players. Tough for most team’s fans maybe, but we needed and got this game.
The comment about defense in general is a good one. Individual defensive players rarely neutralize real scorers, and that is played out on the court daily. Regarding Ivey, he appears to be a solid defender most of the time, but like you said it’s tough to judge. Overall he’s done a better job than I expected this year, but I’m really excited to see Sessions when he gets healthy. Seriously, how ridiculous is it that he completely destroys the D-League, gets called up to the NBA for the first time, and promptly breaks his hand? Ouch…
I actually vouched for CV to start over Yi for quite a while. Like CV says, it’s a matter of minutes, not just starting, and he definitely needs to get a lot more than 15 per game (he’s up to 20 now) even when the Bucks are at full strength.
The double-double comparison is pretty shocking, but Yi does have a much better Roland Rating than CV, and I don’t think they are that far off overall.
2 Brett Boyer // Feb 6, 2008 at 4:53 pm
Thanks, Alex
I was looking at Villanueva’s Roland Rating too, but that data isn’t weighted for teammate factors. Villanueva has played a lot of garbage time this season, so I kind of feel that his on/off court differential is influenced by a lot of court time where nobody really cared what was going on, while Yi usually plays with the starters.
I wouldn’t say that Villanueva is better than Yi, or that one players’ ceiling is higher than the other because of +/- or counterpart PER, but I will say that Yi has looked awful lately and Villanueva is better right this minute.
I do feel it’s a valid measurement of Ivey, though, becuase his playing time has been pretty evenly distributed throughout games.
3 matt // Feb 18, 2008 at 9:05 pm
I`ve followed Ivey`s whole career(high school,College,Pro).The game of basketball is more than numbers,it takes heart ,determination,sweat,hustle and grit.Those are some of Ivey `s traits ,and he does have a solid outside shot.If you watch basketball on a regular basis,you notice the small things (taking a charge,tipped passes,help defence,screens)a couple more things Ivey does.Ivey is one of the best perimeter defenders in the game(get your shit right Brett),ask Kobe Bryant,who said Ivey is one of the better defenders in a league of offensive players.Now if the Bucks other players played any defence,they wuold be above .500.
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